In Iraq: what pepole don't see
There is always this heavy fear I feel when talking politics..The hardest is when it comes to the relation between east and west. But still..Here I go again.
Perhaps pepole, specially in the west, thought now Iraq should enjoy democracy thanks to americans, and freedom , prosperity etc..
Why is Iraq such a bloodpool than? Is it the Iraqis ? Did I say pool?..Ocean is more accurate!..
Seriously I went crazy and yelled, when watching the news with my father not so long ago: "There will be no Iraqis left soon if they go on..I am serious!..Even the devil would have more mercy!"
The issue is complicated. Before the wars and sanctions Iraq did'nt seem at all so far away from it's neigbours Syria, Jordan and others ..There was a mix of pepole living in peace, women unveiled walking next to veiled women, happy children playing on the streets, educated , honest and simple pepole living their lives in peace fighting their bigger and smaller problems (just like other countries). Then came the wars, the sanctions...the horror...no food, no medicine, hard isolation, the horrible effects of nuclear/ chemical weapons used on iraqians that caused, according to a lot of reports, death to approx 0.5 -2 million iraqi children under 6 years..A lot of cancer diseases. And as the situation got worse, dictators fear the uprising of pepole, and the more ruthless they become..
After all that unimaginable disasters, now Iraq seem to be so far away from it's neighbours. Not alot of similarities now any more between us and them. Instead of developping this region seem to stand still some times, or let's say developp slowlier than the rest of the rest of the world, as reports from UN for example said recently. But Iraq..has undeveloppt. Developped backwards.
I remember when the latest war on Iraq started. I did'nt follow the news a lot at that time. I remember on the first days I was abroad. I rememer how disgusted I felt when a student told me he saw some other students gather in front of the news on tv with chips and soda, like it was a movie ...That was too cold! Then I remember by chance reading in a small local foreign newspapper a small article, almost in the end, where an Iraqi, who have been living abroad since many years, explained what he saw when he went there. He said two american soldiers shot down the two guards of a museum, opened it and next thing you knew priceless historical objects were gone. Some Iraqis participated in the robbery and others just stood by watching in disgust.
I could'nt beleive it!!! I just turned it over and over in my head..
And now this..
Today, specially in the western world a church is a holy place, even if the police know a dangerous criminal is hiding there they can't just automaticlly storm it..
I wonder if the western media would have been so quiet if this had happen in a churche? Specially in a non-iraqian churche mabe?
"
Tuesday, November 16, 2004
American Heroes...
I'm feeling sick- literally.I can't forget the tape shown on Aljazeera news.
The mosque strewn with bodies of Iraqis- not still with prayer or meditation, but prostrate with death- Some seemingly bloated… an old man with a younger one leaning upon him… legs, feet, hands, blood everywhere… The dusty sun filtering in through the windows… the stillness of the horrid place. Then the stillness is broken- in walk some marines, guns pointed at the bodies... the mosque resonates with harsh American voices arguing over a body- was he dead, was he alive? I watched, tense, wondering what they would do- I expected the usual Marines treatment- that a heavy, booted foot would kick the man perhaps to see if he groaned. But it didn't work that way- the crack of gunfire suddenly explodes in the mosque as the Marine fires at the seemingly dead man and then come the words, "He's dead now."
"He's dead now." He said it calmly, matter-of-factly, in a sort of sing-song voice that made my blood run cold… and the Marines around him didn't care. They just roamed around the mosque and began to drag around the corpses because, apparently, this was nothing to them. This was probably a commonplace incident."
"My little cousin flinched and dropped her spoon, face frozen with shock, eyes wide with disbelief, glued to the television screen, "Is he dead? Did they kill him?" I swallowed hard, trying to gulp away the lump lodged in my throat and watched as my cousin buried his face in his hands, ashamed to look at his daughter.
"What was I supposed to tell them?" He asked, an hour later, after we had sent his two daughters to help their grandmother in the kitchen. "What am I supposed to tell them- 'Yes darling, they killed him- the Americans killed a wounded man; they are occupying our country, killing people and we are sitting here eating, drinking and watching tv'?" He shook his head, "How much more do they have to see? What is left for them to see?"
They killed a wounded man. It's hard to believe. They killed a man who was completely helpless- like he was some sort of diseased animal. I had read the articles and heard the stories of this happening before- wounded civilians being thrown on the side of the road or shot in cold blood- but to see it happening on television is something else- it makes me crazy with anger.
And what will happen now? A criminal investigation against a single Marine who did the shooting? Just like what happened with the Abu Ghraib atrocities? A couple of people will be blamed and the whole thing will be buried under the rubble of idiotic military psychologists, defense analysts, Pentagon officials and spokespeople and it will be forgotten. In the end, all anyone will remember is that a single Marine shot and killed a single Iraqi 'insurgent' and it won't matter anymore."
(http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_riverbendblog_archive.html)
But don't let this be just vague words..It's more, so see more: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=255312
Ofcourse I hoped there will be justice. My opinion of justice was certainly not this:
| اسقاط التهمة عن عريف امريكي اجهز علي جريح عراقي في الفلوجة علي التلفزيون 2005/05/05
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This is not the end of it quiet yet. A couple of days ago I read on Aljazeera.net about an explosion in Iraq killing more than 22 iraqians, among other violent events from that place, that an extremist organisation had done, and they also called for vengence to the wounded man in the mosque.
Too bad because of technicall problems I could'nt copie and save that news.
But any way..The way I see it..Sure a violent terrorist scares and disguts me. But I saw clearly where they came from here : The politics of the same powerfull country that turned the world upside down in th name of fighting terrorism.
37 Comments:
Mabrouk...new home :)
This nomad is going to your city in a month, http://macronin.nomadlife.org/2005/05/places-to-go-people-to-see.aspx. Do you have any tips for her?
On the anniversary of the first horrible pictures to come out from Abu Ghraib prison, Human Rights watch issued a report stating that "Abu Ghraib was only the tip of the iceberg. It's now clear that abuse of detainees has happened all over- from Afghanistan to Guantanamo Bay to a lot of third-country dungeons where the United States has sent prisoners. And probably quite a few other places we don't even know about."
Read full report at http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/27/usint10545.htm
It is quite clear that it is only the tip of an iceberg.Thanks for the link Ayman.
The United States record on human rights aren't perfect, but that doesn't disqualify them from being the most ardent advocate for human rights. On average, they are near the top, considering the amount of threat they are facing and their active involvements in conflicts.
I think that pepole with American citizenship enjoy their governments great respect of their human rights.
And they have really no choice, they need the pepole's votes. But when it comes to other countries and citizens, specially like Iraq, that have been somehow dehumanized, demonized and labeld as an "axis o evil"..The situation is entirely different. Don't get me wrong..I understand this is sensitive! But I have nothing against Americans..however it is horrible how Iraqians are treated. One can't hide or be silent on that issue. The way I feel it, it's not about Americans or Iraqians, it's about humans. I would be disgusted too if wounded Americans would have been shot in a mosque/ churche or treated like that in Abu Garib.
What happened in Abu Garib is abhorrent and it must be condemned (and it was)
But the reality is, the use of torture are common places in other countries and *nobody* is raising this issue on a global level. On average, human civilization are doing horrible jobs in human right sstill.
The fixation on the United States record is not that useful because it allows the bigger issues to be unnoticed. Other countries can hide because the bigger scape goat is already available.
I am an Indonesian citizen, so I'm not doing this "US defense" thingy because it's my country.
A lot of the military dirty work are done by the US. Bosnia, Kosovo and various other small wars, the force protection of South East Asia so those countries can focus on peace instead of war.
Those dirty works needed to be done but in a lot of cases, no one else can do it.
What do you think about the Iranian nuclear program?
Hey again..This could be a very long talk :) ..
I agree with you that USA has been there to do some dirty work that a lot of other states were not so keen on doing. But the situation in arab world is very, very special when it comes to relations with USA. It's not only Abu Garib. Ofcourse Afganistan, and arab counttries have horrible records on human rights too. But no one see them as democratic countries. And they are not preformig such huge military operations on foregin far away land. And as I said I hoped for justice,regarding Abu Garib and for example the wounded man...But I always got disapointed. About Iran: As long as nuclear program is used to peaceful pupose no problem. Otherwise..How come Isreal has the rightof having nuclear weapons and Iran not?If anyone wants to do something about Iran's possible futur possession of weapons, let's be fair and do something about Israel's certain possession as well!
ha..ha..I'm just fascinated with your POVs :)
The majority people in the US get dissappointed to with what happenned; the US military can do much much better.
How much faith do you think the Iranian program will stay for peaceful purposes only? And what will happen if they go ahead anyway? Do you think Turkey and Saudi Arabia will not pursue their own nuclear program once Iran goes Nuclear?
When India and Pakistan tested their bombs a couple of years ago, no one see it coming and suddenly we have two more nuclear powers.
And how much do you put the issue of "fairness" in regards Israel already owning Nuclear weapon to the collective safety of your region?
I am a bit of a looser but what is POV? I am guessing political views?
Saudiarabia No, Turkey yes mabe they would try..
One can never be certain, yes there is, as always, a possibility than Iran's program might not always stay only for peaceful purpose.However Iran doesn't want to commit suicide,and they know they know they have reasons to fear, respect and sometimes obey other westen countries. .But then again: Why only Iran, what about Israel?? Who ALLREADY has weapons!I would love to see westen countries telling Israel as harshly and eagerly to let go of it's weapons!
POV (Point of View)
Let's ignore Israel for the time being, Israel is a tiny country and its ability to influence events in the Middle East are limited compare to the other regional great powers in the region.
Does the issue of Nuclear armed Iran a good thing for your country (I assume Syria)? And how much confidence do you put in Iran for not producing nuclear arms? If you take a look at Iranian record, they have lied repeatedly to the UN about their true intention; Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei from IAEA will tell you that.
My thinking is this, nuclear armed countries are already bad news; let's not add to them. My family are back in Indonesia but heck, we will get affected as well if there's a nuclear attack exchange/terrorist nuclear detonation wherever it is. (in french "we're all fucked")
In my region it seems North Korea soon going to start their first nuclear test; which can triggers a nuclear arm race with Japan and South Korea. It's all bad news.
Israel is geographically small, but when it comes to power it is the most powerfull country in the region.By far!
If nuclear armed Iran is good for Syria or not? I would prefer the whole world without nuclear weapons..But that wont happen. Would anyone ever dare of dreaming telling strong countries like Usa, western countries and yes, sorry for repeating : Israel, to let go of them? Ha ha..Syria has signed a UN document/ Agreement ,that many other countries have signed as well, where it promises not to developp such weapons and also have as offical stand a wish for, and work for, a world free of nuclear weapons. I, however..See that this region has suffered a lot, and Israel has always had way too much power. And balance is absolutly needed!! And yes..If Iran would have nuclear weapons as well, there will not be a complete balance, not at all..But still...Israel would mabe, perhaps..For once..think about beeing more fair. The hope of true peace would be much greater. Better yet start with taking away Israel's weapons first, then turn to Iran..And the region would be safer.
"when it comes to power it is the most powerfull country in the region.By far!
(The Egyptians will disagree with you on this aspect)
the reality Catherine, once you have the weapon, nobody is willing to let it go (not ever). China, India, Pakistan, Israel, France, Britain, Russia and US will NEVER EVER let go of their nuclear weapon (and these countries pretty much represent all the major religions in the world)
I'm all about being fair, but in this nuclear issue, being fair is bad news for all of us; that's how arm race starts.
And Israel and Iran never been in war with each other.
Nuclear weapons only work as a deterrent to a certain degree. Eventually, mistakes will be made and it will be people, human beings that will pay the price.
Nuclear weapons are only good for one thing and it's not peace or balancing of powers?
Also, what if another chernobyl were to occur?
They don't have to be in war. But they are on opposite sides, and Israel would have to be more prudent.
Israel is more powerfull than all arab countries together. Egypt too.
Specially when it comes to military and support from the west, specially USA.
Well...If it is not an impossible miracle to question Iran( inspite that they will never ever let go..), it should'nt be hard to do the same to Israel(inspite that it will never ever want to..). Perhaps u r right about that these countries will never ever want to let go of it..But the MiddleEast is a very speciall, violent region. And the way I see it..If Usa/ other countries really wants a nuclear free Iran. They should just simply accept having to question Israel too. Sometimes one must understand that it is not so simple, that the strongest always rules, juges and wins..Even if one is strongest, sometimes one just simply must accept doing things one does'nt want or like!It would be great having a nuclear free worl and it is not absolutly impossible..or a miracle..not really..depend's after all on the will.
my blog is http://dodyg.org btw. I need a pause on this discussion; i'll reply tomorrow :)
sure..me too..see you around!
another interesting link, dody and others..about human rights:
http://www.mindbleed.com/?p=11
One quick comment, in English it is Iraqians and not Iraqis. Also, are you Muslim?
sorry if that ends up being multiple posts, I had trouble logging in to blogger, and I never seen my comment show up here.
For the record France built the Israeli Nuclear program over American objections.
I hear where your coming from, in that why does the world ignore the Israeli nuke program, and the best I can figure is that they are a tiny nation who's Arab neighbors have all attacked simultaneously on more than one occasion. I can certainly see why they would need one to guarantee their survival in just a hostile neighborhood.
Iran on the other hand, is not being honest when they claim the need nuclear power for energy, when they are setting on oceans of crude oil. Why do they need nuclear power and Syria does not?
Iran, and your country, both have a documented history of supporting international terrorist,whereas Israel is more overt in their defensive actions.
If the majority of international terrorists were Jewish I am sure the world would be just as alarmed with Israel having them as they are Iran.
You have to judge a nation by its past actions to get a feel for how responsibly they could wield Nuclear weapons, and based on Iran's well published threats to wipe the Zionists off the map, how could they possibly be trusted with they ability to do it?
..
btw POV= "point of view", and I too admire your courage to comment negatively about your countries state of affairs. I notice you condemn my government here with a clear conscience, would you get away with condemning the Assad government direct as well?
Nuclear weapon free is great idea Catherine, but it's not going to happen. The gennie is already out of the bottle. Blame World War II for that and we cannot change history.
We inherit this problem from our previous generation and what's done, done.
Those 8 countries will never abandon their nuclear weapons. It's a given fact for a foreseeable future.
What I'm afraid is the rule of probability. The more countries own nuclear weapon, the higher the risk it gets into terrorist/non-state hand. Mutual Assured Destruction only works when people are 'afraid' to die and try to preserve life. That is no longer the case. We see more and more cases of suicide bombings in the Middle East, copied by Indonesians (Bali/Jakarta), although the Hindu Tamil Tiger in SriLanka did it a lot as well.
The world don't need more nuclear armed countries; countries with nuclear ambition may accuse this as being unfair, but they have to realize we all share one planet and non-nuclear countries have a say into this matter as well.
The day a terrorist detonated nuclear device happen anywhere in this world (regardless where they are;US, Europe, Asia, etc), all of our realities will be changed for the worse.
You say Iran and Syria support terrorists, well...Israel supports stronger much more dangerous bloody terroists..They have a complete strong bloody army killing palestinias and taking their land like if they were worth nothing! And Israel is the one occuping rab land, not the other way around..Sharone said recently after the 1000th time Syria offered peace,that he will never ever give back golan..not even in return for a complete peace with Syria and support and what ever!
And if you lost your home, your land..that were taken by Israelis, just like that..And where forced to leave as refugee with only the cloth u r wearing. And u never got it back.And u r not even aloud to return to your country..And UN resolutions saying you have the right to get something back is completely ignordeg by Israel, with the vito help of Usa like usual..And jewish pepole from all around the world come by millions, but u..who lived there...No u r never allowed by Israel..And the few weak small rests of your country, that was a country once(Palestine) but was erased by Isreal, don't even have an army to defend it self..While Israel has one of the most powerfull armies in the world..Is that balance??? -So now when u HAVE NO state and no army..the only way is civilins joining "unoffical" guerillas...And ofcourse..that makes them "terrorists" even though they are nothing compared to the powerfull Israelian "offical", and by that, accepted, army.
Hey, your preaching to the choir here about Israel. I totally agree with you that the formation of a Jewish homeworld in the middle of Palestine was one of the biggest blunders ever "supported by the UN". The way that they consolidated the gerrymandered mandated land was nothing less than criminal.
However, all the land the have gained since then, was purely in justified self-defense for anyone willing to look at it objectively.
As Dody said "We inherit this problem from our previous generation and what's done, done."
So where do we go from here, perpetual religious hatred and low-level war, or find a way to peacefully co-exist. From that standpoint it is obvious to the outside observer that if the Arabs stopped attacking Israel they would be willing to live in peace, but it the Arab faction that can not live in peace.
You admit that Israeli is the most powerful nation in the region, does it not stand to reason that they have shown remarkable restraint in not escalating the conflict to a conclusion. They could annihilate the Palestinians if they chose to, but they have not. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the Arabs had the ability to annihilate Israel....do you think they would be capable of the same level of restraint?
Just out of curiosity, your country has occupied both Lebanon and Palestine, what was the justification for that?
I don't think that admitting Israel could have done more harm and occupied even more ..but did'nt..is a reason for thanking Israel!! And certainly NOT for forgetting what it allready DID occupy an did, and IS doing untill this second!!
There is a HUGE difference by having militry presence in Lebanon, occuping in that way..And occuping Golan and ANNEXING it and build settlements!!!!
Erasing the original nationality completly, to have Israeli one instead!
Anyway..This discussion could go on forever and the distance between us is huge. You seem to be ver pro-Israeli(and by that pro-Us politics in this region too) and I see this country still untill today doing unhuman criminal actions. So..I will leave it here, I can't discuss this forever and just talking to one person is not going to change anything anyway.Instead of answering and discussing you further here I will keep on blogging. And there..You will be able to follow my opinions and read some information, if you want to.
"Just out of curiosity, your country has occupied both Lebanon and Palestine, what was the justification for that?"
Syria has occupied Palestine??!!!!
For Christ's sakes, when did that hapeen?
Whatever, if your suggesting that I shut up and go away, and let you get back to your America / Israel hating I will.
But I remember reading something you said in a previous post about "you try to see things from the opposition's perspective", and you certainly dont seem to be applying that to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
You might be justifiably biased on the issue, but I am just being objective, as only a third party can. Personally I cant tell much difference between the Israelis and the Arabs except for their holy book of choice. They both seem a little too bloodthirsty and irrational to ever peacefully co-exist to me.
I am not really pro-Israel by American standards, I personally could care less about them. Its just that even though we see pictures of both murdered Palestinian and Israeli Children here, the Palestinian children seem to have been mistaken for adults when they were attacking Israel, while the dead Israeli children seem to have been the target of choice of your indiscriminate Arab brothers.
But by all means carry on with your one-sided blogging, I find your inability to objectively see that Americans are dying to bring freedom to your culture fascinating, and a case study for why we should not bother trying.
Check This out Rami
The Egyptians, Persians, Syrians, Turks, Greeks, and Romans have all "occupied" Palestine at one time or another.
In fact the Palestinians are descendants of occupiers. The truly indigenous were vanquished a long time ago.
The current conflict is not about land, its about unending religious hatred.
I sweard the last would be my last comment, but ok THIS will be it,
Rami :Yeah..I know..What's next?
Actually I spoke with a european not so long ago and he said " but did'nt Syria occupy a peace of Palestine too? [So not only Israel occupied Palestine], Was'nt it Golan?.." I had to control my self from having a heart attack, not so impressed by this western, educated engineer's knowledge..And explain..
Perhaps Syria occupied China, or Israel?!
So..For the record: No Syria did not occupy neither Palestine, nor Israel,nor USA, nor China(!!)
No ofcourse as u clearly see I never said shut up. And I said I have nothing against Americans. But if speaking about what we suffer, from Us and Israel politics out here means we "hate Americans" than there is a problem..because I, am NOT going to shut up just so I won't be regarded as America hater. And as I said..Occuping with a military presence is bad..But builing steelments and stealing land and beautiful houses ,and destroying ugly houses otherwise, to build Israeli houses on that same place..And Erasing the whole country..And not even treating the original inhabitants like humans..that is completly different.
Now I am sorry but again I can't keep discussing this, but that does'nt mean that I hate u or Ameria, or am a dictator who says shut up..I am just saying I can't go on for ever..Instead I will blog and if u want to know more about what I think and stuff u r welcome to visit my blog!
That is all!
P.s: just 1 small thing I forgot to add..
For just 1 single example, and there r many, many other..That American soldier and the wounded man...That soldier did not "die for our freedom": He did something quiet else..
Yes I agree some arabs have done bad bloody actions, (and they have been admitted and codemned),but westerns should too..
Now once again, I have to leave now!!!So I am.
To Redneck Texan,
“The Egyptians, Persians, Syrians, Turks, Greeks, and Romans have all "occupied" Palestine at one time or another.”
Aren’t you missing someone here? The CURRENT occupiers of Palestine and Syria?
Instead of going to the 3rd Millenium BC, wouldn’t be better to work on ending Israel’s current occupation of Arab lands, and implement UN resolutions that America and its “coalition” has “forgotten” to enforce?!!
“The current conflict is not about land, its about unending religious hatred.”
Of course it is about land…
When you loose your land, you loose your identity. If Mexico occupies Texas, you will no longer be a Redneck Texan, and you will keep fighting til death to regain that identity/land.
Finally, I just wanna make something clear here; We don’t hate Americans. We don’t like your government’s blinded biased toward Israel. That’s all…
We are occupiers. We took this land away from the Indians and Mexicans by using indiscriminate violence.
But they are not attacking us daily out of revenge. They were soundly defeated, and have learned to peacefully co-exist with us....a sign of rationality on their part.
Look man, or whatever, I totally sympathize with you on the Israeli occupation.....but what are you going to do about it. Keep fighting and losing in perpetuity, or deal with it in a rational way in which everybody can co-exist.
What is the purpose of Resistance?
Do you think there is any chance you can ever win without exterminating the Jews?
Do you think they are going to get tired of defending themselves and move away?
Do you think the world is going to see the Arabs indiscriminately killing Israelis and suddenly start sympathizing with the Arab cause?
What do you want America to do....stand aside and let you slaughter them, like the Europeans did in the past?
It pisses me off that my government is giving billions of Dollars to the Israelis, and the Palestinians, and the Egyptians, hoping they will pretend they dont hate each other. I wish the world would turn their back at just let them both use their full resources to bring the conflict to a resolution. As it is right now the world has pinned Israel's arms behind their backs and wont let them use their full resources to end the conflict. We have mandated them to eternally being victimized.
Look at todays shelling of Israel by Hezbollah from Lebanese territory. How do you expect the Israelis to respond? Pretend that it did not happen? Just stand aside and allow themselves to be attacked because they dont want to appear to be the aggressor.
You have justified it in your mind that they deserve to be attacked, and you see their natural response as another act of aggression on their part. You fail to acknowledge their POV.
There will not be peace until both sides want it, and right now neither side does. Just blaming one side for their atrocities is inherently unfair. They are both guilty of being nonobjective.
Catherine, Rami,
The US wasn't a natural ally with Israel. Up until Six Days War, Israel main allies were French and British. Only after the Six Days War a strategic partnership emerged between Israel and the US (which can only happen because the French stopped supporting them during the crisis); and I think the fact that Soviet Union were supporting Syria and Egypt in the war at that time probably play a role in sucking the US into the conflict.
Six Days War happened. The occupation happened because Jordan decided to join in the war. Syria wouldn't lose Golan if it hadn't joined in the war.
And now our generation have to deal with the implication of it. That is the legacy we inherits. Let's make the best of it.
Now with Abu Qurei at the helm of PLO and Sharon in Israel, I'm optimistic we will have a Palestinian state this decade. These two people are lifetime enemies, and sometimes it takes these type of people to reach peace once you realize time and resources are better used in building peace than fighting wars.
this is definately a long thread :) but it's fascinating and engaging.
Is this conversation end here or shall we continue?
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